L: We're back with Ellen DeGeneres and Anne Heche. Why do you think people fear you? They fear a couple.. it is fear.. why?
A: Well, Jane Anderson who directed the first piece that Vanessa Redgrave was in, said something so clearly to me the other day at the press junket, and she said, uh, discrimination is a lack of familiarity. And I'd never put in that one sentence that concisely and I think that's what it is. When you're not familiar with something, you fear it. When you don't understand it, you fear it. And part of what we're trying to do is bring a familiarity in it so that there's not a fear and part of it is that's it, I don't get it. I don't get something too. i don't hate the things that I don't get, I just don't get them.
L: 'Coz one of the male fantasy cases is watching women make love so that's a fantasy of many men, so why is it that they're shocked at the reality of it? Or fearful of it?
A: I would think they're fearful of that because I think there's a justification when the fantasy of 2 women, the ultimate fantasy is, and they need me too.. and when the fantasy is removed, they don't need me... well..
E: I think what it boils down to is that you assume if women are lesbians, then they hate men. And that couldn't be further from the truth. It's not why you're a lesbian. You don't hate men and I think that sometimes men get threatened or women get threatened, oh what if they hit on me, what if they.. you know, that's pretty egotistical to think that, you know, oh we'll just go out with anybody of the same sex..
L: When the wild criticism, of what Pat Robertson says, he is a classic example, Jerry Faldwell, who's trying to do something about meeting with you.. When they say, it's unnatural, just not natural.. how do you respond to it because you had to feel, when you first have those feelings, it's unnatural to you because you live in the same society, right? When a boy first feels attracted to a woman, this society doesn't feel any unnatural feelings at all, you feel unnatural too..
E: No, I didn't.. I was unsure about the feelings because it wasn't what I had been, fed, you know, this conditioning, like you know, the advertisements of a man and a woman, laughing, holding hands, smoking a cigarette, eating Certs, you know,.. hey, I should get money for that.. but you know, you don't have all this stuff that says it's ok. You're conditioned to see a man and a woman, so you think, it wou'dnt feel unnatural at all. It's not unnatural to me. To Pat Robertson, it is. To me, some of the things he does are unnatural, you know. I don't know how you can call yourself a spiritual religious man and be so judgmental. I think that's really interesting to me is that this whole thing started from Jesus being loving and teaching love and acceptance, and tolerance and non-judgemental.
L: You don't buy it when they say we love the person, hate the act?
E: I don't buy it at all.
A: I don't buy it either. The most natural thing to me in the world is falling in love with somebody. I mean, to me, I didn't think for one second about gender.
L: Well, you grew up, you were heterosexual, you thought you were heterosexual..
L: You have not had a lesbian relationship at all, so when you had the feeling, did it feel unnatural?
A: Well, no! And that was the thing that I think that everybody had a problem with me when I.. whatever.. as I say, came in, didn't come out, came into my love. It was the most natural thing in the world, and exciting, and wonderful, and fabulous..
L: Did you surprise yourself? Did you look in the mirror and say what's going on.. You did with men, right?
A: Yes, but I didn't have any, didn't make me go, oh, gee, this is unnatural for me to have love..it actually righted me.. To me, it was the most natural thing, like. ohhh, wow, this is that thing when everybody says you know you're gonna fall in love and you'll know it when you do and that was that for me, and it was the most natural thing in the world. It became strange in the consequence of it..
L: Women in the 50s discover this, people married with 3 kids are discovering it..
E: I have to really qualify what Anne just said because, you know, she's the most evolved person I've ever met. She's my little buddha. I mean, she is this evolved amazing being. I didn't have that easy of a time. I was dating men, and dating women, I was back and forth and was, I was still considered bisexual and I was saying, I still like men, this is just this girl.
L: Did you date a man? How did you feel?
E: Uh, I've always liked men, you know, I was boy-crazy when I was growing up, I was, you know, obsessed with boys,..
L: You weren't a tomboy then..
E: I was a tomboy but I still liked men, but when it came to sexuality, I was the only virgin in high school. I didn't have the desire to be with a man sexually..
L: Did you wonder about that?
E: No, I just thought I was a good girl, you know.. I was like, hey, I'm so proud at myself that I was the only virgin when everybody else was.. and when I finally did sleep with a guy, I just had this Peggy Lee song in my head, Is There All There Is, I mean,..
L: Really, you had that feeling?
E: I mean, yeah, I actually had the song, which was really bothersome to have Peggy Lee's song when you're trying to make love.. uh, but anyway, so yeah, it was not a natural thing for me so when I was with a woman it was. But it took me a long time, because, I mean the answers remain..
L: When you were with men, it felt natural to you, didn't it?
L: You loved a man?
A: Oh yeah, sure, I was in relationships when I loved that man I was with very much, absolutely.. it didn't feel like it was, it never felt complete to me..
L: You never felt, is that all there is?
A: No.. and as for the unnaturalness, I was raised in a very religious upbringing. It should've been as unnatural to me sleeping with a man before I was married as it would be me being with a woman. I mean, there were so many rules and things that were laid out that were rights and wrongs of how to be in a relationship. So, that was unnatural in an argument between my mother and me too, about living with a man before I was married to him. There are a lot of things that were laid down..
L: We'll take a break and go back and ask if they really think that programs like these, If These Walls Could Talk 2, help, or are they preaching to the choir? Don't go away..
L: Programs like this, "If These Walls Could Talk 2", you think they just watched by people who are sympathetic or do you think those who think differently watch and learn? What do you think?
E: I don't know, I hope so. I mean, I watch a lot of hetersexual love stories that are beautiful movies, beautiful stories, but just because I'm gay, doesn't, say, oh I can't relate to that. It's a man and a woman, what's that all about. So I hope..
L: Do you think you can help change people, Anne? Or people who might be thinking the other way? We've evolved in some way, television has something to do with it, so must have something to do with it.
A: Sure. The intent is not to change. Again, the intent is to bring familiarity and what that familiarity means to me is when we start to understand that we're all based in the same human emotion. We have the same emotion as any other couple. That to me is what a lot of people have come up to me and said, like, I get it, I'm starting to get it. You love the same way I love, you argue the same way I argue, and they are in the fear place I think a whole lot of questions where people think, oh but I'm not like them, I can't relate to them, whatsoever. The way we relate is through our emotions. So this couple, and the couple that I made a movie about have the same emotions as any other straight couple. And that's the most I can help people to understand..
L: WIth all these strives, Ellen, are we tapped into it at all, to why I'm heterosexual and you're not? Do we know why?
E: Uh, no, and I don't think, you know.. does it matter? I mean, to me,..
L: What it matters is because there's a great argument, is it choice? Can what you do affect if you were teachers, can you affect young girls to be interested in lesbianism who might not wanna be? That's one of the arguments of the other side..
E: Sure, but if you're teaching Math, I don't know how that's gonna influence somebody. What's that got to do with anything. I mean, I don't think teachers talk about their home life, and so that's kind of a crazy argument. There are more.. well, I don't even wanna get into that..
L: We don't have any answer to why you are the way you are, Ellen. You don't know that. It's like not knowing why we like bananas. I like them and you don't.
E: I actually do like them.
L: My son hates them but we don't know why my little baby hates them..
A: Right. The intent is never to recruit anybody.
L: They think that there's some sort of a conspiracy here..
A: Yeah, that's ridiculous..
E: It's insane to think that, I mean, why would we want that? I mean, why can't we celebrate our differences and our diversity? Why can't we embrace that? It's like how you were saying you grew up in Brooklyn, a melting pot of different types of people.. that's what the world is. I don't think that God makes mistakes. Why are there white people and black people and brown people? What is the difference, you know. We're all just human beings. Why does it matter who I love and who you love? It's my business and it should be celebrated that we found love at all. Love is the most important thing that you can find in your life and if you have it, then good for you. I think, to me, it was genetic. I do think it's genetic. And I think I feel it, and I look back and I was clearly that..
L: Let me get a break and we'll be back for more with Ellen DeGeneres and Anne Heche. The film is "If These Walls Could Talk 2" premiering on HBO. I'm Larry King, don't go away..
L: Welcome back to Larry King Live with Ellen DeGeneres, the executive producer of "If These Walls Could Talk 2." It co-starts Sharon Stone and Anne Heche directed and wrote the segment dealing with the year 2000, and the gay couple and how they might try to have a child in various ways. Ellen did mention to me during the break that she was very upset as is Anne about "Who Wants to Marry a Multi-Millionnaire" the program that was kinda weird and with subsequent results of it. Why has it upset both of you as a lesbian and as a human being..
A: As a woman, more than anything, that they'd line up to sell themselves...
E: You line up like a beauty pageant.. doesn't matter what he looks like, this guy could be a complete dog, and he could be this horrible human being..
A: ....which we found out he is..
E:... with no morals, no.. we don't know that, you know.. whatever..
A: ..he hit his ex-girlfriend, that's all.
E: ...no, it's a legend.. don't say things..if we don't..
A: Yeah, but that's true..
L: Watch this.. a fight..
[E&A both laughing]
E: I just don't wanna.. We don't know that about him. We've heard that.
A: Ok, whatever.. ok..
L: Ok, but the whole concept was.. why don't these people who protest about gay marriages protest about this.. which is an insult..
L: ...to marriage..
E: It is an insult to marriage. So if you're gonna say marriage is the sanctity that you should cherish and it should be about love, not just a man and a woman, but love, you know, then boycott, protest that show. I didn't see one person speaking out about that show. And again, it's like, you can be a murderer, you can be a rapist, you can get married from prison, as long as it's a man and a woman, it doesn't matter what you've done, and what your character is..
L: By the way, you know that guy right?
E: Yes, I did know that guy..that's not why I.. I'm not defending him..
L: He was a comic, you were a comic, you both did stand-ups, right?
E: I heard about the show, I didn't watch the show, I was not one of the 23 million, but I was.. I've gotten tapes sent in, so I was watching one of these entertainment shows, and I was like, oh my God, I know him. I actually worked with him on the stand-up circuit and, you know.. Anne doesn't really remember him..
L: Why do you think so many people watch it, Anne? Why are we fascinated with all these women who want to marry someone just because they have money?
A: You know, there's a fantasy about the American dream, and somehow that has been skewed into thinking that it's getting money..
L: Princess..like Cinderella..
A: The princess and the king. Yes, and the king who has.. but our king is now, instead of being about a human being, and about personality, and who that.. what exists, what makes that person special. It's become about money, it's just, it's so disgusting to me, and often times, it's become about women, who can parade themselves as the most beautiful, as they're a trinket on an arm, so I don't know who's more embarrassing, the man, or the women who were involved in this, that he would allow himself to just marry someone who looks good from the outside, and she'd allow herself to marry someone just because of the money..
L: Probably a lot of those people would disagree with you about Proposition 22..
E & A: Exactly..
L: ..that marriage is fine, your marriage is wrong, but that marriage is good..
A: We can't go an get married, you know, even though we've been in love for 3 years, and that's, you know, that's completely not acceptable, but that is fine..
L: We're gonna take a break, Sharon Stone has arrived. She'll join us in our remaining segments as well, along with Ellen DeGeneres and Anne Heche of "If These Walls Could Talk 2". Back after this.
[A clip from "2000" and Commercial break]
L: We've been having quite a discussion with Ellen DeGeneres and Anne Heche of "If These Walls Could Talk 2" and we're now joined by the 3rd person involved in this multi-drama, Sharon Stone, who appears in the segment called "2000" which was written by Anne Heche. Thanks for coming, Sharon, for bringing me.. I know these are suspenders. I'll open it later. Get it over and done with..
S: OK. [pulling Larry's suspenders] Just a little ritual (to E&A) we have, yes..
L: Why did you do this?
S: Well, uh, when Anne called me and said she'd written something she wanted to direct, I thought I bet that's good because she's smart, talented, funny, interesting, compelling, truthful person. So I really wanted to read that. So when I read it, and it was a romantic comedy, that was very well-done and I knew that I could co-star opposite someone who was really facile with comedy and that I'd be able to learn from Ellen, so I thought this is terrific, so I decided to do it. And then when I read the material and saw that it had great social value, I thought it would be..
L: This is about a lesbian couple who's trying to have a child..
S: It is, but I think ultimately it is a universal story. I know we had people, I don't know if you talked about when people would come up to us on the set and said, this is our story too, this is.. and I had people talk..
L: Do you play it like gay, or did you just play it as someone...
A: Well, what does that mean? How do you play gay?
S: It's actually a good question..
L: It is a good question..
S: When I..
L: I don't know how to play gay, I don't know what the feeling is..
S: Me too. I said, I'm not sure, do I do something different? How do I behave? What should I do? And so I spent a lot of time talking to Ellen about that and we, together, with Anne's great supervision, wrote our story about how we met and what happened. So we built a character. What I learned through this experience is, you love who you love. It's like, you know, how you love someone, they're more handsome to you than anybody else.
S: They're funnier, they're greater, you see them differently. You don't see, is this a guy, is this a girl. You see, this is the person I love.
A: Thank you!
L: Ellen, was the set tough explain to the actress who is not gay?
E: No, because.. Sharon is a very smart girl, you don't have to explain anything to Sharon, I mean at first there was fears of, do I have to do anything differently, namely in the love scene,...
S: They made me cut my nails.
S: [laughs out loud]
E: And that's mainly what Sharon was worried about. As far as just the relationship, that was an easy thing. But the love scene was, do I have to do something differently,..
S: Technically, what do I do. Is there a way that you move in to section..
L: Is there..
S: You know what I come to realize from this experience that when you are making love to someone that you love, there's a union where you become the other person, where they become you.
L: Not male-female..
S: It's a oneness and I saw that oneness very clearly that, that's what love.. I got to say, for me, it opened my mind about really what love is. It made me see Phil differently, It made me see him maybe with more tenderness.
L: Playing the scene with her, right (looking at Anne)?
A: She played the scene (pointing at Ellen)..
L: Oh you wrote it..
A: ..I caught the thing...
S: [laughs out loud]
L: Right, how well did she do?
E: She did excellent. I think that..
L: Is she a good gay person?
E&A: [laugh disbelievingly] Yeah, yeah.
E: Yeah, she's an excellent gay person and if we were recruiting, we'd be trying to get her..
S: [laughs out loud]
E: But we're not.. but I just wanted to say something about the male-female thing. I think there's a male and female energy that all of us have. Some people have more male energy and some people have more female energy. When you're making love, that switches around, it moves around depending on what's going on, and when you have this full..
S: Day to day I think it changes..
E: Yeah, especially in that time, there's like a, there's a lot of different things going on..
L: This helps us a lot in understanding. One of the ways we progress, don't you think, Anne, is by understanding each other? If I could understand what you feel, I'm gonna commisurate more, I'm gonna understand more..
A: Absolutely! That's why I loved the question of how was being gay, what do you do to change to be gay.
S: When you first decided to start a relationship with Ellen, did you have those questions? Am I gonna know how to do this?
A: There was one... it was so funny because..[turns to Ellen], can I tell the story?
E: I don't know..
L: Go ahead, Ellen's gotta leave, this is gonna be good for the ratings..
A: We were... I was immediately, immediately connected with Ellen, to the point where I knew that we would be together for the rest of our lives. And that in itself was strange to people, including Ellen, without understanding where I was coming from. Anyways, so we were talking for the entire night, and finally I said, you know, I just wanna say to you that I've never been with a woman and I think we'd be fine with every other arena, but my worry is that I won't be able to satisfy you because you've been with women. And it was a true concern of mine. I too was under the impression that there was something different to do. Our first, our first kiss kinda took that concern away..
A: But it did because I came to that, I came to know that I'm kissing her. We didn't have, it was not at all a feeling of, well what do you turn to me and say, I don't think you need to worry about compatibility..
L: And there's an instrument that I don't have , it's just, you know, what do I.. didn't you have those feelings?
E: What, like a violin?
E: What kind of instrument are you talking about? Well, that's something that, you know, obviously.. You know, I think love is a chemical thing and there are a lot of people.. Listen, love comes in many different forms and it can be expressed in many different ways.
S: I have to say that, I'm not gay, but I was more compatible in the love scene I had with Ellen than I've been in some other love scenes that I had to do with men when I don't have this natural..
L: Oh now every man who's ever played a love scene with you is now deferring to..
S: Well, which one, is it me? No..
L: That's right..
S: Because some people you don't have as much of a comfort. We have a comfort, a friendship that made it easier..
L: Ellen has to leave us now..
E: I'm leaving..
L: Sorry to interrupt you, but she has an appointment atCBS, now she has to go but Anne and Sharon will remain.. Thank you, you're a gutsy lady..
E: Thank you..
L: Ellen goes, and we have 2 segments coming with Sharon Stone and Anne Heche. The film is, "If These Walls Could Talk 2" coming up on HBO. We'll be right back.