Hot off the Usenet press. It's May 4th.
Nothing is sacred. Open your mind. But think for yourself.
History of the Free Market Democracy

I. Initial conditions: Everyone has fairly equal amounts of currency. Everyone is involved in one of the "menial" professions - shelter construction, food and energy production. Everyone in these professions can produce slightly more than he needs. [Why? The fact that other societies have artists, politicians, scientists, salesmen, etc... none of which are involved in the "menial" professions... shows that this is possible.] Let's say each person is able to produce enough for the survival of 1.7 people.

II. An inventor creates something everyone wants and is rewarded with more currency that he can ever use (if he lives like everyone else). He stops working. His real production value is now 0. A slight inflation, but hardly noticeable.

III. The rich man can now afford to pay for the livelihoods of other people. So he hires people away from the "menial" professions. Real production drops, inflation goes up. But the rich man and his employees both have more than they did before. The employees become lawyers, philosophers, politicians, soldiers. Other "menial" workers stop their work and become salesmen, to convince the rich man that there are other things he wants, and thus get rich off the rich... just like stockbrokers.

IV. Laws are passed by the rich man's lawyers, enforced by the rich man's soldiers. Eventually the "menial" workers become the poorest in the land. Some sell out to the rich man. Others work the rich man's land as hirelings. Others go into debt to try to keep production up.

V. How has civilization survived so long? What is the balancing mechanism? Revolution. After the revolution, the cycle starts over at step I. If the rich have hired enough soldiers, revolution fails to happen on a large scale. Instead, there is petty crime.

VI. When democracy was invented, revolution became part of the system. No ruler could rule for more than 8 years. However, because rulers are either rich themselves or are funded by the rich to run their campaigns, very little is done. And so the voters tell themselves, "Well, better luck next election."

VII. When the corporation was invented, a new kind of rich being came into existance. This rich being has even more currency than rich individuals (though loans, stock, earnings, etc). It hires more people away from the "menial" professions to be patent lawyers, to make office equipment and office furniture, to build skyscrapers, to try to create greed through advertising, to print company newsletters. Short-term gain for the employees followed by long-term inflation of the goods produced by the "menial" professions.

VIII. Maynard, Karl, Ayn, and Alan each have 100 g.p. (that's gold pieces for you non-dungeons&dragons economists). Maynard and Karl put their gold in First Bank, while Ayn and Alan put their gold in National Bank. First Bank has 200 g.p. and can now give a 50 g.p. loan to Alan. Alan now has 150 g.p. in his bank account. When Maynard and Karl check their bank accounts, they still say 100 g.p. each. National Bank now has 250 g.p. and makes a 100 g.p. loan to Maynard, who (according to his bank) now has 200 g.p. in his bank account. Back and forth it goes. Money magically appears without a single paper bill being printed. It can't be helped. The question isn't whether money should be created out of thin air, the question is what those people are being paid to do. Producing skyscrapers? Producing palaces? And then Malthusians wonder why there are so many people but not enough food or basic shelter to go around.

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me. For I have prisons to fill and corrections officers who need jobs."

The Currency Strike
As the builders of their homes, producers of their electricity, and growers of their food, if a democratic people should find that the wealth accumulated by individuals or institutions is being used against them, it is their right as workers and duty as parents to stop accepting as legal tender the gold, seashells, salt, coins, or paper notes hoarded to injure them.

St. Louis Woman dies from abortion 7.5.97
U.S. Air Force humiliated 28.5.97
The Anarchist Movement (And Anarchist Theory FAQ) 19.4.99
Ar article you might find interesting 10.7.1
Please Comment on the following article 28.4.1
Assimilation or Diversification? 19.1.97
Banks create money. 22.4.97
The Bell Curve 15.8.97
Big Brains 17.6.97
Brainwashing? Ecology? 3.6.97
Morality and Brainwashing 4.6.97
Bread and Circuses 23.1.97
How to deal with bubbles? 11.8.97
Campaign Finance Reform? No. 25.2.97
Campaign Reform Idea - Obey current laws first 25.2.97
Capital (Finance Starting Nature) 18.6.00
The Big Lie of Capital Gains 28.4.97
Fatcat bonanza - capital gains tax cut 6.5.97
Capitalism 28.8.97
Capitalist (Efficient Inefficiency Panic Question Startup Force Odds Real) 15.4.99
WTO, GATT, CATO 29.4.1
Homosexuality: Choice? Yep. 13.6.97
Christian (Cults Fascists U.S.A.) 22.5.97
Ark. church blasts working moms 11.4.97
Class (American Free Warfare Everything) 11.5.4
Communism (Enforce Imperialism Libertarians) 25.8.97
RUN-UP FOR May 1st / May 15th - Where were the Communsts right? Where were they wrong? 3.4.97
Love! Honour! Compassion! 26.6.97
the competition state 26.2.1
Cooperation or Competition 4.4.97
Overconcentration ... now it's not funny anymore 27.3.1
Overconcentration yet again 28.3.1
What is consciousnes? A simple biological answer to some big questions 9.6.97
Greedy consumers 7.3.97
Cooperation is not coercion 3.5.97
THE NEW CORPORATE LINE - Layoffs/more hours/lower wages/no job security are all simply ... "America" 10.2.97
corporation'ism = fascism 9.5.4
counterfeit US $100 bills (Super K's) from N. Korea 1.5.99
Crash indicators- 14.8.97
CRASH OF '97 ??? 25.8.97
OKC PsyOps campaign (Where's the crater again?) 20.5.97
OKC: Where's the crater again? 14.5.97
Scientific Theory of Creationism 4.6.97
Why creationists must be opposed! 18.6.97
JAIL prevents CRIME? -- Dittoheads v. LIBRILL!S 2.4.97
Darwin (Honour Smartest Reason) 8.3.1
Death (Abolish Analysis Life Restitution) 19.5.97
Debt (Antidote National Reagan) 7.9.97
Democracy (Survive Bluff Workplace Limits Future) 17.5.1
Democratic (Republic Socialism Nonsense Corporate Fallacy Lynch Anti) 15.5.97
Diverse America is and has always been working 15.4.97
DNC To File For Bankruptcy Protection? 7.4.97
The Rights of Doctors 13.6.97
Drugs 'n' stuff 2.5.97
Legalize Drugs!!!! 10.4.97
Ebonics (Jive Hysteria Inquiry Good) 23.1.97
Economic (WWI Prospects Reductionism Spirituality Fallacies Reality Supply Trickle Rump) 12.10.1
About economist 9.8.97
Here is the real simple answer for an economist 28.4.97
Will the global economy make the world a better place? 10.3.97
Education (More Moral Right Solutions Clinton) 15.4.97
Efficiency v. distribution 14.5.1
Elect (Warning Socialism Proposal) 20.5.97
Elitism, Not Racism is America's #1 Problem 23.5.97
English (Dialect Lose Slavery) 10.2.97
An Enlightenment 23.3.97
A Gem of an Essay: _Equality and Efficiency_ 2.9.97
inequality innate? not so, big oh. 7.6.97
The Evolutionists' Superstition About Speech 31.3.97
the nature of evolutionary processes 19.8.97
Economic Exploitation 26.10.1
Exploitation - What is it and Why Should we Care? 25.8.97
Consistency in Objecting to Government Extortion 30.5.97
The FBI Bombed the WTC 28.4.97
"Greenscam" is Misusing the Federal Reserve 15.4.97
THEORETICAL QUESTION - Should Fed. Reserve Chair be directly elected? 7.2.97
IMPORTANT International Finance Congress 7.2.1
Food costs 27.2.97
Free food 24.3.97
Force 27.5.97
Frame of Referance and c 5.6.97
Old free market capitalism is dead 7.3.97
With Friends Like This, Who Needs Enemies? 22.10.1
Fossil fuels 1.4.97
Political Funding 22.1.97
Where will the GDP go? 23.6.97
Global village 3.12.96
Economics and moral goals 22.10.1
Gold (Money Fiat IMF Had) 23.10.01
Greed 18.4.97
Greed ain't natural 31.3.97
Gun (Bombs Britain Leads) 15.8.97
Health (Canada Much Sic Cost Conservative Score Racist) 5.6.97
Lord Deliver Us From Hispanics 23.4.97
Reagan & HISTORY 3.6.97
Hitler (Bad Jefferson History) 14.4.97
Homeless (Shelter Rights Nonsense Honor Why) 22.4.97
Brainwashing? Growth and Immigration. 19.6.97
Income Mobility 24.6.97
Natural Right Minimum Income: Purple Wage?? 18.6.97
Theft of Indian land 31.3.97
Industrial Revolution, does anyone get to live? 20.3.97
Inflation (Fed Lie Unemployment Rate) 28.3.99
Isolationism or Trade? 9.9.1
In Defense of Ivronics! 14.1.97
Let's Cut Through the "Ivronics," Folks. 18.1.97
Jew (Enforce Jealousy Capitalism Mafia Blitz Media Asians Torture) 21.3.97
The Job Market. 21.4.97
ON PRIORITIES - We don't need "microwaves" but we do need jobs - A Post-Mortem Response to the Gdansk Shipyard Closure 16.3.97
Econ of Journalists 20.8.97
Trial by Jury 21.4.97
Keynes (Enema Snapshot Economics) 17.4.99
Labor (House Productivity Reagan) 5.2.01
Landlord = a Local Government 7.4.97
Attitudes towards the Law 9.6.97
Difference between a 'liberal' and a 'libertarian' 4.3.97
Libertarian ideals 4.8.97
Libertarian Socialism 22.4.99
The Meaning of Life - Mony Python et al. 13.6.97
Honour in the Marketplace 1.5.97
Macroeconomic Implications of International Marketing for Transition Economies 23.3.1
Ayn Rand: A Marxist? 26.5.97
The Real Meaning of May Day 19.4.99
Media (Owners Liberal Anyway Democratic Force Bias) 19.5.97
Military Parasites 29.4.97
"Greenscam" is Stealing Your Money 31.3.97
Moral Economics - Last Essay 8.3.1
Nazi Media Blitz Launched 27.2.97
Networks, the current crisis and future wars 18.10.1
Home of Newt 2.4.97
Newt "foot-in-mouth" Gingrich Speaks Out 4.4.97
Ownership 25.2.97
Violent Ownership 1.4.97
STOP LA Anti-"Panhandling" Law ! 27.2.97
Limbaugh is a PATRIOT!!!!!!!!!! WHO GOT 4 Million from the Commies in China? CLINTON! 9.4.97
How do photons exist? 5.8.97
In libertopia do the poor die? 21.3.97
Ravi Kanbur on Poverty 8.2.1
10 Principles 16.10.1
Prisons -- a failed concept. 28.3.97
PRISONS -- End the Violence 22.4.97
Property (Abolition Intellectual Ownership Theft Constitution) 19.6.97
Growth/Redistribution for Poverty Solution 14.1.01
Regulations 21.3.97
The psychology of relativists 17.6.97
Relativity ?? 7.6.97
Religion (Other Religion Science) 13.6.97
Republicanism Explained in 50 Words or Less 28.3.97
ONLY IN AMERICA - Do useless CEO's get rewarded for their failures, and how!!! 11.3.97
Thank God for rich people! 22.1.97
The nature of rights 29.3.97
CEO Salaries? What's the Problem? 27.3.97
Are we saving too much for our grandchildren? 18.6.97
School (Choice Prisons Question Vouchers) 19.2.97
Another attempt to take our 2nd amendment right 9.5.4
Are dittoheads more like sheep or lemmings? 22.5.97
Skooling 26.3.97
Secondhand smoke risk ... what's missing from this report? 22.5.97
Socialism (Altruism Defense Capitalism Liberty Atheism Socialism Negates Fake Understanding State) 2.9.97
Socialist (Locke Lie Rhetoric Capitalist Rackets Whinings) 24.8.97
The Space Program 16.3.97
Paper, Tax Financial Speculation 24.8.1
Speech (Banning Limits Reform) 13.4.97
Starr guzzled $28,000,000 so far 4.4.97
Star Wars reinterpreted 17.3.97
Stock (Bubble Crash Pyramid Worry) 20.8.97
Good Looks == Success? 14.5.97
Tax (Rational Fairer Irony Extortion Poor Theft) 22.8.97
Internet Terrorism, Ozone... PROPAGANDA? 7.5.97
Internet Terrorism, Ozone Weapons, and more Government 3.5.97
Morality, theft, and all that 21.5.97
dumbing-down skilled trades 20.4.97
Trespassing 22.3.97
Have you had enough of tyranny yet? 27.5.97
Union Man 14.4.97
Adding to Alfonso's Comments about the California Utilities 20.2.1
about theory of value 23.4.97
Who has decided that there is a need for a "Volunteerism Summit" ?? 19.5.97
Wage (Worker CEO Livable Min Trickle Growth Wages) 2.8.97
Wealth (America Limits Unequal Wealth Fairy Nations X%) 13.8.1
Welfare (N.O.W. Desirable Parasites Reform) 11.4.97
Cheap Will 12.8.97
The End of Work 14.5.97
external effects on foreign workers and the environment 23.4.01
The Un-Contented Workers of America 30.5.97
Workplace injuries 26.3.01
The Legacy of WWII 23.5.97

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Links to this page:
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Information requested: US finance capital? which fraction ofthe bourgeosie? (70s vs 90s) 18.6.00
John Parker's Starting Capital. 3.6.97
The nature of capital 1.5.99

Capitalism 2.8.97
Capitalism at work, ain't it great. 16.6.97
Capitalism fuels racism 14.4.97
Capitalism is a Crime 7.4.97
Capitalism is a Failure and it Destroys Small Companies 2.4.97
Capitalism is competition. 6.3.97
Capitalism is the only way. 11.6.97
Capitalism- Severe Iniquity 26.6.97
Capitalism Stinks of Death! 19.1.97
capitalism, understanding what it is.. 16.4.97
Capitalism will implode in the near future 7.4.96
How capitalism creates killing fields: 12.8.97
Libertarian Capitalism 29.8.97
Libertarianism does not Equal Capitalism automatically 2.5.97
Objectivism, Libertarianism, Capitalism & Greenspan 28.8.97
Rejecting Dog-Eat-Dog Ultracapitalism? 9.2.97
Workers under capitalism get only a "living wage" 23.6.97

Capitalist economics is NOT optimally efficient 15.4.99
Capitalist inefficiency 25.2.97
Capitalist panic 15.4.97
Capitalist Question 27.1.97
Capitalist startup costs 6.2.97
Capitalist vs Capitalism, free expression vs force 1.9.97
Overcoming Capitalist Odds? 10.2.97
Real capitalist world 12.3.97

Anti-Christian Media Demonizing Cults 2.4.97
Christian Family Persecuted by Fascists 28.4.97

The American Class System 18.2.97
Class-free society? 6.3.97
ENVY and class warfare 19.5.97
Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Class Warfare 11.5.4

Communism -- a stateless "Society" cannot enforce its decisions! 25.8.97
Communism - Capitalism vs. Imperialism -- they are not the same! 10.8.97
Libertarians Now Support Communism? 20.3.97

Darwinian Honour 7.5.97
Social Dawinism..Survival of the Smartest... 10.4.97
Social Darwinism vs. the Age of Reason 8.3.1

Abolish The Death Penalty 21.4.97
Computer Cost Benefit Analysis of Death 19.6.97
The Death Penalty: Pro Life? 5.5.97
The Death Penalty: & Restitution. 15.5.97

Antidote to the Debt Virus 7.9.97
The National Debt (N.O.W seems to have dropped out of this thread) 18.4.97
Reagan Ran Debt Up...Killing Us Now 1.4.97

Democracy: Calling Your Bluff 7.6.97
democracy in the workplace 17.5.1
Democracy - What are the Limits? 25.8.97
Social Democracy- Gov't of the future 25.3.97

Democratic Republic? 28.2.97
democratic socialism. 15.4.97
democratic socialism = nonsense 10.3.97
Democratic socialism vs. Corporate Autocracy 9.5.97
The fallacy of democratic socialism. 3.4.97
Lynch Mobs Are Democratic 15.5.97
Sometimes being anti-democratic is good! 16.3.97

Ebonics and all that Jive Talk 23.1.97
Ebonics Hysteria 22.1.97
Ebonics Hysteria -- An Inquiry 14.1.97
Ebonics Is A Good Idea 20.1.97

Economic devastation led to WWI 21.4.97
Economic prospects in Central and SW Asia 12.10.01
Economic Reductionism 17.4.97
Economics and Spirituality 13.3.1
Libertarian Economic Fallacies 30.5.97
Supply Side Economics - What is it? 1.4.97
Trickle Down Economics Works! 1.3.97
Trickle Down Economics Works, my rump! 18.2.97

DO we need more spending of education? 18.2.97
P.S.: Education IS a (MORAL) RIGHT! 15.4.97
Education IS a RIGHT! Fight fight fight fight! 30.3.97
Public Education problems and solutions 16.3.97
Public Education problems and solutions: Clinton/Tucker 27.3.97

Black Dialect - Not English 28.1.97
Speak "Standard English" or lose. 10.2.97
Why We Say "Standard English - Slavery" 3.2.97

Election: serious warning 20.5.97
electoral socialism. 22.2.97
Proposal for a better election system 6.2.97

Gold and money 23.10.1
Gold standard and the fiat money system 20.6.00
IMF says gold sales would need US Congress backing 30.3.99
The gold standard and WE HAVE BEEN HAD 6.8.97

Bombs, guns, militias and the NRA 6.5.97
Britain's Blair: Ban All Handguns 13.5.97
Where Gun Control Leads. 15.8.97

Canada's Health Care Waiting List? 4.3.97
Health insurance does not insure that much 6.5.97
How much does national heath (sic) [no pun intended] care cost? 30.4.97
How much does national heatth care cost? 29.4.97
National health insurance *conservative*? 11.4.97
Nationalized Health Care Score Board 18.4.97
Racist Libertarian Health Care 14.3.97

Hitler! Was he all that bad? 14.4.97
Jefferson vs Hitler 28.3.97
Jefferson vs Hitler (National Alliance History!) 28.3.97

Canada Homeless Fight for Shelter... 22.4.97
Homeless Rights Amendment 25.2.97
Homeless Rights Nonsense 15.1.97

Alan Greenspan- The Fed- Inflation 12.4.97
The Great Inflation Lie 6.5.97
inflation-unemployment trade off 3.6.97
rate of inflation 28.3.99

How Jews Enforce Political Correctness in the Media 12.3.97
Is Anti-Semitism Caused by Jealousy of Jewish Success? 13.3.97
The Jewish Basis of Capitalism 10.3.97
Jewish Mafia Controls America 11.4.97
Jewish Media Blitz Launched 21.3.97
Jews Love to Torture and How! 21.4.97

A Good Keynesian Enema ! What the World Needs ? 13.11.97
Keynes' Biggest Mistake: The Snapshot Fallacy 8.9.97
Keynesian Economics 17.4.99

Build my house with labor! 6.2.97
Common labor productivity and its causes 5.2.01
Reagan's Labour Hypocricy. 27.5.97

A Few Owners of the So-Called Liberal Media 1.4.97
"Damn Liberal network media", says Lott 21.4.97
Damn that liberal media, anyway! 28.4.97
Democratic Media 19.5.97
Force..... & property rights in communication media 2.5.97
Media Bias. (What a joke!) 2.4.97

The Global Abolition of Money and Property 19.6.97
Owning Property, Physical & Intellectual 24.3.97
Property Ownership 17.2.97
Property is Theft! 11.1.97
Property Rights Come in Third in Constitution 24.3.97

"No room here for other religions" says judge! 17.4.97
religion 13.6.97
Religion vs. Science 14.5.97

Force & School Choice 19.5.97
Public Schools are Prisons 18.2.97
Question Public Schools and the Media 6.2.97
School vouchers = income redistribution 19.2.97

Altruism and Socialism 8.5.97
A Defense of Socialism Against the Writings of John Boston 18.6.97
Is Socialism Capitalism? 9.5.97
No liberty under socialism. 31.3.97
socialism and athiesm 21.3.97
Socialism 23.6.97
Socialism negates freedom 11.3.97
Socialism, Real and Fake 7.8.97
Socialism, understanding what it is.. 24.6.97
Socialism without a state?? 2.9.97

Locke Was not a Socialist 10.3.97
socialist lie 24.8.97
Socialist rhetoric goes on and on....facts remain scarce 20.5.97
Socialist versus Capitalist 19.3.97
Socialists Endorse Protection Rackets. 13.1.97
socialistic whinings... 24.8.97

"banning" speech 11.4.97
Freedom of Speech:Where are the Limits? 13.4.97
Will "reform" end free speech? 4.3.97

The Stock Market Bubble (1929 revisited) 8.4.97
Stock Market Worry 24.6.97

Easier, Fairer Taxes 6.5.97
"Progressive Taxation" - The Irony 18.4.97
Property Tax is Extortion 13.1.97
Tax the Poor! 7.5.97
Taxation IS Theft 22.8.97

CEO wages up 24%. Worker wages go south. 22.5.97
CEO wages....who cares? 22.5.97
A "Livable Minimum Wage" is a Bad Idea 2.8.97
Min wage 11.3.97
Minimum wage increase: Think of it as Trickle Up Economics. 31.3.97
QUESTION: If Economic Growth does not Raise Wages then WHAT GOOD IS IT? 25.2.97
wages 3.6.97

America declines as people do without to feed wealthy! 14.4.97
Limits on wealth? 1.4.97
Unequal Distribution of Wealth 28.2.97
wealth 30.4.97
Wealth Distribution & The Fairy Returns!! 22.4.97
Wealth of Nations 13.8.1
X% of the people own Y% of the Wealth!!! 15.8.97

N.O.W. : National Organization for Welfare 5.4.97
Welfare - necessary & desirable 24.2.97
Welfare Parasites 19.4.97
Welfare Reform 11.4.97

11.5.4 19:15 Office software From: CJohnYu.96@alum.mit.edu Newsgroups: sci.econ,alt.politics.democrats,alt.politics.republicans,alt.anarchism.syndicalist Subject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Class Warfare Date: 11 May 2004 20:05:51 -0700 "Robert J. Kolker" wrote in message news:G_foc.15990$UQ.871889@attbi_s51... > > Then problem with large class divisions is that those who have more > > money are able to hire others at higher wages. This causes an > > imbalance in the economy in which a disproportionate amount of > > the economic resources available are being used to serve the wealthy. > > The result is scarcity of the goods and services available for the > > average person. > You mean the Rich can actually outbid the less well off? Oh the Horror! > The Horror! Tell me honestly, do you long, in your heart of hearts to > equalize income? A bit too obvious that the rich can outbid the poor? Perhaps. But it points to a problem with the claim that capitalism is the most efficient form of economic production. The problem is that it produces too much for the wealthy (and for corporations) and not enough for the average person. The greater the wealth disparity, the less efficient the economy becomes at being able to provide for its economic participants. There are many ways to equalize income. Taxation is one of them. I personally would prefer allowing employees to democratically control their corporations. Employees can choose how much to award each other based on whatever they choose. Though some companies would choose to award some employees more than others, if employees were in control, the differences in income would probably be much less than it is today.
From: "M. Luther" CJohnYu.96@alum.mit.edu Newsgroups: sci.econ,alt.politics.democrats,alt.politics.republicans Subject: Re: Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Class Warfare Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 19:15:48 -0400 "Albert" alwagner@tcac.net wrote in message news:20040510175838.6ce2b089@lfs.mydomain.com... > How about defining "class" limits as orders of magnitude of the minimum > wage. Then, under a properly functioning capitalist system, everyone > could/should be middle class. No human being is worth $5000/hr and no > human being is worth less than $5/hr. Then problem with large class divisions is that those who have more money are able to hire others at higher wages. This causes an imbalance in the economy in which a disproportionate amount of the economic resources available are being used to serve the wealthy. The result is scarcity of the goods and services available for the average person. If class differences were much smaller, less money would be available to hire away resources from being used to produce for the average person, resulting in more goods and services available for the middle class. Today, it's not just wealthy individuals that are throwing the economy out of balance, but corporations are now so wealthy that they are hiring away a disproportionate amount of resources used to produce for humans to produce things for corporations themselves, like office buildings and office equipment. Bill Gates, after all, makes most of his money by serving corporations through office software rather than through the production of consumer software.
From: CJohnYu.96@alum.mit.edu Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats,alt.politics.republicans,alt.politics.usa.republican,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.socialism Subject: Re: Another attempt to take our 2nd amendment right Date: 9 May 2004 21:20:13 -0700 nshinede@columbus.rr.com wrote in message news:05zmc.3315$nL.226@fe1.columbus.rr.com... > This struggle is akin to a religous dispute. These leftists actually > believe that if all firearms were banned, the human race would be a > wonderful species, murder a thing of the past. This of course, is also more > leftist foolishness. > Now, all we have to do is explain that to these airheaded, overemotional > leftists who are absolutely certain they already know everything!(:-) Actually, as a left-winger, I support gun-rights. How else are workers going to be able to defend themselves from the hired guns of capitalists when they decide to assume control over their places of work? Guns unfortunately are what governments are made up of. If you want a government by the people, then the people should have control over the guns.
From: CJohnYu.96@alum.mit.edu Newsgroups: alt.politics.economics,alt.politics.socialism,talk.politics.theory,alt.politics.democrat,alt.politics.republican Subject: Re: corporation'ism = fascism Date: 9 May 2004 12:40:59 -0700 "Theorem" Theorem@Axiometric.NOSPAMPLEASE.org wrote in message news:109nenm8p7eafe5@news.supernews.com... > Communism is socialism run amok. The leading mistake of Marx was the > notion of a classless society, with the means of production owned by > the workers. By the existence of workers and managers, you have a > class division. So Communism is self-contradictory, which is why it > was destined to fail eventually of its own accord. Only capitalism > provides a way (stock ownership) for workers to own the means of > production. What happened in China and the Soviet Union wasn't really the means of production owned by the workers. "Ownership" implies some kind of control. The control in this case was given to unelected government officials. If, on the other hand, managers were elected by employees (or if you go one step further and have managers replaced by direct democracy), that would be true ownership of the means of production. The capitalist style of ownership still leaves far too much control in the hands of the wealthy. The votes of a few people usually far outnumber the votes of any employees who happen to be stockholders. The result is an economy controlled by a few rather than the many (though it's not quite as bad as in a command-economy).
12.11.1 Shell of a belief structure. Subject: RE: OUR STRENGTH OUR WEAKNESS Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:37:32 -0800 From: "John Yu" johnyu@microsoft.com To: "Patrick Gunning" pgunning@aus.ac.ae, ipe@csf.colorado.edu CC: ilagardien@yahoo.com Patrick Gunning wrote: > I learned non-Euclidean geometry but I do not think that > this geometry was instrumental in the belief system I now > have. It is, however, a component of my knowledge about how > to achieve my goals. The same is true of economics, as I > define it. It's good that you mention goals, because in many cases, goals replace axioms in determining a person's logic. Where one may traditionally disprove a statement by pointing out errors in the proof's axioms, the same can be done by questioning whether some of the person's goals are really valid in light of other goals the person may feel are more important. I would say a great many beliefs are constructed from transference, card stacking, and band wagon logic (#3, #6, and #7 from http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/ipe/2001/msg00774.html) - each alone may not make for much of a belief structure, but taken together they build up what a person considers to be a "preponderence" of evidence for believing whatever it is he or she believes. Each of these propaganda tactics do in fact have some basis in axiomatic proofs, for example: Band Wagon 1. The more widespread a belief is among some group of people, the more likely it is something that works. (This is somewhat like empirical evidence.) 2. Belief X is very widespread. 3. Belief X is likely something that works. Fallacy: Belief X is something that works because a lot of people believe it. Transference 1. The more often someone has been proven to be correct, the more likely they will be correct in other instances. 2. Person Y is very often correct. 3. Person Y says statement X is true. 4. Statement X is likely to be correct. Fallacy: Statement X is correct because the well-respected and trusted person Y says so. Card Stacking 1. The more evidence there is for something, the more likely it is true. 2. I've seen a preponderence of evidence for belief X. 3. Belief X is likely true, provided no other evidence turns up disproving it. Fallacy: Belief X is true because all the evidence I've seen suggests it. What makes certain types of card stacking propaganda effective is that not only does it provide one-sided arguements in favor of something, but that it includes straw man arguments supporting the other side(s). As a result, the "victim" thinks he is hearing all sides of an argument, when in fact, the cards have been stacked against the straw man side. When a person only hangs out with believers in realpolitik, communism, or whatever, the things he hears will likely consist of only statements that make the believers of that group feel comfortable - statements that avoid cognitive dissonance - statements that feed their egos because many people base their self-esteem on the correctness of their controversial beliefs. Fortunately for us, open forums like this one (at least I'm hoping it's open) are a cure for card stacking. But in order to cure it in the "real world" media reporting has to be truly pluralistic. Unfortunately, many reporters are as human as the rest of us, and tend to omit statements that make them feel cognitive dissonance - they simply don't like to hear it. Let's say side A has full control of their media and refuses to allow any pluralism. Let's say side B starts its own pirate media to counter what side A is saying. Is this effective? Two sides stacking their evidence does not necessarily mean that evidence for all sides is suddenly available. The world is more than just the supporters of Bush and Bin Laden (or the supporters of Arafat and Sharon). Ismail Lagardien wrote: > How on earth did you get to the assumption that the > "human mind" operates on "physical laws" just like the > rest of the universe Well, we can certainly get into a discussion of spirituality, consciousness, free will, causality, determinism, and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle here, but I'd prefer not to. It is applaudable however that you are questioning one of the axioms of my previous post - that is how true depth of belief (or disbelief) is established. Whether the human mind is entirely deterministic is not important to the discussion of what tactics are being used (with great effectiveness in many cases I might add) in modern propaganda. Politics is built on beliefs after all, and various propaganda tools are employed by those engaged in politics to achieve whatever goal it is that they happen to be trying to achieve. If you don't think the human mind acts according to causality, you certainly have the right to claim that none of these propaganda techniques work - feel free to ask the various governments of the world to stop wasting their time trying to make use of them.
Subject: RE: OUR STRENGTH OUR WEAKNESS Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:20:52 -0800 From: "John Yu" johnyu@microsoft.com To: "Patrick Gunning" pgunning@aus.ac.ae, ipe@csf.colorado.edu > They are the products of propaganda and indoctrination and are almost > entirely unable to make an unbiased judgment of the facts, even if > they knew all the ones that are relevant. I find this statement quite amusing because I think we witness such behavior from numerous people right on this list. I would caution against falling into the same kind of defeatism that the original poster was talking about. Just because one person can't think of any ways to defeat "propaganda and indoctrination" doesn't mean it isn't possible for other people to do so. Let's start with the assumption that the human mind operates on physical laws just like the rest of the universe. As a result, it is a logical machine - it is this same property that makes it susceptible to both propaganda and counter-propaganda. Here are two ways to build up beliefs: 1) Proof from axioms 2) Propaganda. http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/ipe/2001/msg00774.html contains something of a recipe for the second method of building up beliefs - the most effective probably being #3 and #6: transference of authority and card stacking of arguments that support only your own side of the argument. This happens in all nations - including your own, no matter where you happen to be reading this. However, the problem with the second type of belief structure is that it is a shell of a belief structure. There isn't the same underlying support holding up the person's logic as there is in the first case: proof from axioms. During the Korean War, certain people in the intelligence community were amazed by the fact that captured American soldiers were "brainwashed" so much that even when they returned to the U.S. they continued to spout communist propaganda. I think we can honestly admit that the soldiers in almost any military organization are indoctrinated (simply because it is easier to do so), not by proof from axioms, but by a thin shell of propaganda tricks like transference and card stacking. This is weak. The counter-propaganda tricks used on the captured soldiers probably didn't have to dig very deep before the soldiers' own logical thinking process started to kick in. Granted, card stacking of arguments from the opposing side was probably still used. However, even if the deeper axioms the soldiers agreed to were not very deep, it still serves as a firmer foundation to counter the more superficial methods used in traditional propaganda. -----Original Message----- From: Patrick Gunning [mailto:pgunning@aus.ac.ae] Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 1:09 AM Cc: ipe@csf.colorado.edu Subject: Re: OUR STRENGTH OUR WEAKNESS I am not sure whether it is wise to respond to someone who calls himself the village idiot, but I'll risk it. It is indeed a war of ideas. But there is no way to immediately get the upper hand. There is a very large per cent of world's population who are dictated to by ruling elites and who are completely unaware of the great mutual benefits of the world trading system and of its peace dividend. The adults in this population have not been encouraged to find truth and, in far too many cases, have not even been permitted to seek truth. They are the products of propaganda and indoctrination and are almost entirely unable to make an unbiased judgment of the facts, even if they knew all the ones that are relevant. The extremists of this group are willing to commit suicide in order to achieve what they have been led to believe will be eternal bliss in heaven. The process of influencing the ideas of the children of such adults and of changing the institutions that give rise to people like their parents will be long and painstaking. What can be done at the moment is to recognize one of the two pillars of the creed of the _old_ liberals: free minds. (The other pillar is free markets.) The power of extremists who block people from learning history and from learning how to study history scientifically (i.e., with a minimum of bias and preconception) must be taken away. I don't know any other way to start achieving this than through the use of force. And, given the recent destruction and and increase in transactions costs imposed on the peaceful, trading peoples of the world; the sooner the better. The ultimate goal of winning the "war of ideas" will have to wait must be secondary for the moment, although it is certainly the ultimate goal. See Ludwig von Mises's _Liberalism_: http://mises.org/liberal.asp pairunoyd2000@YAHOO.COM wrote: >There seems to be a currency of defeatism being vigorously traded in the >marketplace of ideas. This defeatism is coined in this saying, "Our >strength is now our weakness." >How do we challenge this commonly held belief and is it indeed vunerable >to our challenge? Is there truth in it? >Obviously, our freedom has enabled us to produce the worlds greatest >arsenal of self-defense, but does that freedom expose us to a malevolent >twin brother? >It seems the liberals are really beginning to utilize this defeatists >attitude of our freedom being our weakness in order to subdue our freedoms. >Of course, they don't frame it as such but rather they pawn it off as >dealing with reality. >This is a war of ideas that we need to immediately gain the upperhand on >before their intravenous surge of deception strengthens it to a formidable >foe. >R. L. WHITE, VILLAGE IDIOT

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